Episode 10 : Black pregnancy and stillbirth with Natasha Green

Dr. Sophia:
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Sophia Podcast. I'm an obgyn practicing for over 15 years in my native New York City. And I love to help women learn about their bodies, empower them, and embrace themselves. On this podcast, we will talk openly and with heart about all things affecting women from pregnancy, menopause periods, sexual health, fertility, and so much more. Disclaimer, this is general medical information. Based on my professional opinion and experience. For specific medical advice, please refer to your physician. Today's episode will have sensitive information that is only suitable for adults. Hello everyone, and welcome to the Dr. Sophia podcast. Today is going to be a very special episode as I am joined by Natasha Green, as well as her father, Dr. Rupert Green. It's very fitting to have both Natasha and her father on as we approach Black Maternal Health Week, which is April 11th through the 17th. I am of course, joined by my co-host and good friend Touseef Mirza.

So Natasha, we were fortunate enough to meet at the Legislative Caucus about a month ago, and I was speaking on a panel regarding birth equity, and at the end of the panel you stood up and shared with us your story. But before we go into the story and the journey that you've been on, I would love for you to introduce yourself, please.

Natasha Green:
Sure. And thanks for having me and thanks for having my dad. So I’m Natasha Green, people usually call me Tasha, and the work I do is plentiful and vast. And so currently I have an archery business in New York City called Hidden Gems Archery, where we bring archery to the youth. It's a mobile archery setup range. And we make sure that as many of our black and brown kids as possible get to try the sport. And absolutely we bring it to corporate and other entities.

Outside of that, I have an EdTech startup called We Intervene, really working closely with districts to connect families to resources and opportunities, right? I believe in options and opportunities. So that's been going really well with the Department of Education. And then lastly, I'm a global community manager, right? Managed communities for women in tech work. A hundred thousand members across the world, 40 plus communities where I manage volunteerism in order to get women and non-binary folks in tech to stay in tech and advance in tech.


Dr. Sophia:
Wow. Natasha, you do amazing, amazing stuff. Great stuff. Yeah, exactly. That's fantastic. Dr. Green, we're so happy to have you on and I know that you are here in support of Natasha. If you don't mind just giving us a brief introduction of yourself as well, please. Thank you.

Dr. Green:
First of all, lemme thank you for the opportunity with this space to get this information out there. Obviously I'm Dr. Rupert Green. Natasha is my daughter. I'm a longtime educational activist, especially in the period of science, technology, engineering, math, and stem. So I'm proud that Natasha pursued that road.

Dr. Sophia:
Great. I see the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Dr. Green:
Indeed it doesn't.

Touseef Mirza:
Yes. And also you have an amazing voice for radio.

Dr. Sophia:
Yes.

Touseef Mirza:
Just wanted to call that out.

Dr. Sophia:
You enhance our podcast tremendously just with yourself, right?

Dr. Green:
Thank you.

Touseef Mirza:
So I just wanted to also say thank you to both of you for joining us and then when we actually first met Natasha. So Sophia was actually speaking on the panel on birth equity which was really elevating different discussions on black maternal health in terms of legislation, in terms of prevalence, and the issues we see. And at the end of that amazing panel discussion, that's when we saw Natasha. So we didn't know Natasha before that. So Natasha basically took the microphone at the end when it was Q&A and you basically started to talk about your story in terms of what happened to you personally. And it was such a personal, important, profound way that you were able to just share with vulnerability your story, that the whole room felt it.

There were a lot of people and everybody wanted to be around you after the session finished, wanted to give you support, wanted to touch you, wanted to feel your energy. And so this is one of the reasons why we felt it was so important to, to talk to you and, and have you come on our podcast to share your story. So with that, would you please, with all openness, please share your story with everyone.


Natasha Green:
Yeah, sure. And excuse me if I have to tear up maybe a little bit, but I will still be clear. It's a story within a story because there's always a bigger story of never even thinking that you could not deliver a baby or have a child. In my family especially we never saw that, right? Like, what does it mean to deliver a stillborn baby? Like that was never a thought, right? Also the concept of not even realizing that at 40, 39, 20, I would not even be able, right? Like I had a low follicle count. My baby's name was actually Journey Evangelina Green Hamilton. Just moving forward, I’ll just say Journey Evangelina Green. So the story even before this whole process of Journey even existed was that I went to a fertility doctor because I just felt something was wrong.

And then come to find out something was wrong, right? My egg counts were really low. And these are things that you don't know about at all. And it was really concerning to me and me being who I am, right? Problem, solution, problem solution. I was trying to figure out at that time also with my partner what is the solution to this concept. Why is my count low? No one told me counts could be low. Like where are the eggs going? And so that was what was like the midst of all of this too, this idea like, wow, like I probably can't even have a child, right? And I shared that with my significant other at the time. And so when I did get pregnant, I was really excited to tell the guy who was his Journey's father.
Natasha Green:
So moving forward, I’ll just call him Journey's father. He was around. He was happy but not really happy. It's this whole complexity of what does it mean to be a father nowadays or just what does it mean for him psychologically. So that was the other emotional stuff going on. And so I went a lot of times by myself. In the interim by myself to my checkups, you know, wherever I was going. And then I had multiple checkups. I was 39 going 40, black, high-risk. And so now we're going through these months and I'm going to these doctors, one at the hospital, the maternal field medicine, one for the obgyn practice, which was a multiple of them. So usually obgyn’s, there'll be like four or five, like they do this practice.

Dr. Sophia:
Yeah, it's a group like a group. Several doctors work together as part of a practice.

Natasha Green:
Exactly. And then in that they partner with the hospital and they rotate right? In order to do the delivery. So, like I said, I'm going through a lot of these processes by myself. I'm telling my mom, I'm telling my dad, I'm telling my sister. And then we have this situation of my two, my best friend Candace and my close friend, my cousin Tanisha. We were all pregnant around the same time. We had a pregnant team, right? You know, I drove people out to Long Island to a baby's summit and like, oh, let's look at these baby stuff. So you have to also know that in this climate, my best friend is pregnant, my cousin is pregnant, we're all doing these things. And so the week before Thanksgiving, like I said, I was going to the maternal fetal medicine and I was going to my obgyn. And so 11/23, the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, I went to the MFM and you know, she's looking at me and she's like, you know, you really need to get delivered and induced this weekend. I suggest that you do it this weekend.

Touseef Mirza:
So what is an MFM?

Dr. Sophia:
MFM stands for Maternal Fetal Medicine. And those are OBGYNs that are specially trained in high-risk pregnancies. So an MFM is a high-risk doctor, or they take care of patients that they deem are high-risk,

Natasha Green:
And usually, when you have certain MFM, they are thought leaders, you have them for a reason. Like, because you know, the complexity of birthing, of birthing, like race, you know, all of that in the hospital I chose, but it was like one of the best. Because I googled these things, you know, when you're pregnant, you do all kinds of searches. I never Googled so many things in my life. And so I went and I was like, okay, doctor, so and so I think it was a great idea, right? And I know I actually said this because I actually texted two people and was like, oh, the doctor is saying I'm gonna probably get induced this weekend. And I wanted to get the little Journey out. It was time, I think everyone gets that feeling towards the end of their pregnancy like, this baby has to come out.

Natasha Green:
And so she sent me down to the maternal ward and there was another doctor there who was a part of the practice and she's like, I'm gonna talk to Dr. So-And-So, and he's coming in for Thursday. Thanksgiving Day. And then we know they're on holiday a lot of times. Places are, they're less staffed. And I was like, okay, well, you know, whatever Dr. So-And-So wants. So I go on Friday, I spend time with my family on Thursday, or whatever Thanksgiving. I ended up also having a perianal abscess, which was developing rapidly during these last couple of, like, days before.

Touseef Mirza:
So what, what does that mean exactly?

Dr. Sophia:
You were having an abscess, so a small pocket of infection that she was having around her anal area at the same time that you were supposed to be induced. Is that what was happening? So you were feeling very, pretty uncomfortable then, I would imagine? And from there, did you then go to the hospital for that as well?

Natasha Green:
Yeah. So what happened was no one got back in contact with me about being induced that weekend. So I had a doctor's appointment on Monday and I shared this with him. I was like, you know, there's something that is not, you know, right? Like, I don't know what this is because I don't, like I said, I don't get infections. And so he looked at it and was like, oh wow, you have this abscess of oil, I'm gonna send you to the doctor early tomorrow morning, you know, to get it drained because I wanna put in for you to get induced this week. And I go to the hospital in the morning, Dr. One. So Dr. One does what she has to do to drain it, the boil. And then I went to see my other maternal field medicine doctor who was like, you know, you should get induced this weekend.

And then when they looked, you know, they looked at the monitor, her technician looked at the monitor, she didn't say anything. And you know, I just like, okay, you know, and then usually I record almost every time I was there because I like seeing, you know, the heartbeat. I like, you know, talking to the technicians and all of that. And she was quiet and then she went and got to the doctor. And then she, the doctor from MFM looked at me and it's the black African lady. And she looked at me and she's like, why didn’t she get induced over this weekend? And I was like, I wanted to go to the doctors and tell them yes to get induced. And so she started crying. She was like, there's no heartbeat. Oh my god. I started crying and I called my dad and I called Journey's dad. And it was like, there's no words.

And so I don't know what to say when that happens, because y'all know more than I do, right? Y'all connect, y'all speak as doctors, you know, and if you tell or ask another doctor, please look at this patient, I would expect that that common courtesy, professional courtesy is there, right? And you asked me that question of why weren't you induced this weekend. And I expected to see you when I got back, you know, on Monday I was gonna come visit you. Then there was a breakdown in conversation. And that's something to be noted. And I feel like people don't realize that when you do put your trust in the people who are supposed to make these decisions because you have the tools, you have the connections, like right, if you say do something right it should be done accordingly. And so they took me in a wheelchair to get into the delivery room because they had to start inducing me.

And I shared with the doctor, just cut me and get the baby out because the baby's already dead. It doesn't make sense to do this. This, she was like, no, you are gonna have scars, physical scars that you're gonna see every day. So don't do that. And it was one of those moments when I was just starting to ask, why me? This is not fair. Not what did I do wrong? So I hope that helps a little bit about the story. And if I missed something, you could ask.

Dr. Sophia:
Oh my gosh, Natasha, I just again, hearing your story now for the second time, I am incredibly moved because you are right. It seems that there was a breakdown in the communication from one physician to the other physician and how obviously that made a dramatic impact and traumatic impact on your life.

Touseef Mirza:
I wanna say thank you so much. It was difficult to hear. So I can't even imagine how difficult it is for you to say that. So thank you so much for sharing that. I just wanna take a step back because there was a lot of information that was given. So basically I'm just gonna call Dr. A, said that she was going to be induced on the weekend.

Dr. Sophia:
Dr. A, being her MFM or maternal-fetal medicine doctor, the high-risk doctor. So that would be the doctor that typically would give recommendations for example, towards a delivery plan when you have a high-risk patient.

Dr. Green:
Might I interject?

Touseef Mirza:
Certainly.

Dr. Green:
From what I understand, the doctor said that she was to be induced. The other one said, let her go home and enjoy Thanksgiving and come after that time, Thanksgiving. And she went in the morning, the baby was alive in the evening, the baby was dead. So there was no urgency in, you know, treating her.

Natasha Green:
Then I feel like I should be blamed because I was like, oh, you know, I really should have now had a doula with me. I really should’ve had Journey’s father come more. Even though I asked him to come, he was like, I'm working, or whatever he was doing. And so there's this now like what happens to people who take this journey solo because then are we not taken as seriously or are we taken as in, oh no one really cares for you or loves you. And it's really sad psychologically what type of biases, unconscious or otherwise we know people hold against different people, especially different people of different races.

Dr. Green:
Yeah. she missed out that she spent what, three days in the hospital to deliver a dead baby. I think she should also mention that.

Dr. Sophia:
So you went through the whole delivery process. So the concept of being induced, you had to go through that process and then to deliver, which at the end of it you did have a vaginal delivery.

Natasha Green:
Yeah.

Dr. Sophia:
Okay. Can I bring us back a little bit? I just wanna make sure that I ask you a few questions. And I know you're saying that you started asking yourself all these questions, but first thing, there was no point in this that is your fault. And I get how easy it is, especially just as women in general, we are very quick to start to conceptualize and blame ourselves. But I would like to on-air and just really share with you what you did, you are not the person to blame here. And so for me, it's the question where in your words, do you feel was the breakdown? Where was the breakdown?

Natasha Green:
Yeah, the breakdown is when the doctor, the MFM doctor shared with Dr. B, who was the doctor on call, shared that I would like her to get an induced look at this weekend. And that wasn't taken into consideration enough to say, no, let me put you down on this calendar, right? Being that you're already in practice with my primary care and another doctor.

Dr. Green:
And I have a question here with regards to the racial implication. If Natasha were white, would the decision be the same?

Dr. Sophia:
Well, Dr. Green, unfortunately, you're not wrong. You're not wrong for questioning that. And because we know that the statistics are what they are. And at the end of the day, you know, black women suffer the risk of mortality three to four times that of white women. And when we think about stillbirth, we know that black women also, again, suffer two times that of white women in terms of stillbirth. So you're absolutely not wrong to question that, to wonder about that. If Natasha had walked in and she'd been of a different race, would there have been a greater sense of potential urgency or the thought process or the thinking, you know, really there's a major part of your story that really hits home for me. And it's not just looking at you when you walked in on that particular day, but rather understanding exactly who you were as a patient looking at you from the full scope.

So when you say that, hey, I am a 39-year-old woman who is pregnant on my own, after seeing a reproductive specialist for the amount of time that you did, and then to have had whatever multitude of visits and et cetera, to then come to the point where the high-risk doctor who's also been following you say that at that time, for which you were already at 39 weeks. So a time that is completely acceptable as far as medical practice for an obgyn to be induced to deliver a baby. That recommendation being said and stated and then to make alters to that type of recommendation based on scheduling as opposed to really understanding who you were as the patient. So more so than you just walking in there off the street, it's the concept of knowing all of those little details and why they matter.

Touseef Mirza:
And also, I just wanna say, we're not saying that this is exactly what happened to you because we don't know the case in of itself. We just know that there is prevalence for that and that it can occur either from explicit bias, meaning explicitly having a recognition that the person is from a different background and acting differently, or it can be implicit, meaning that it's so unconscious that you don't even realize it. But it's, but it's something that is so ingrained in society that it's something that comes up. We don't know which one of the two it is. And we're not also saying that it's directly linked to you. We just know that this is something that has a prevalence in society.

Dr. Sophia:
I would say I beg to differ Touseef. I think it has everything to do with who she is, what she looks like, and how she walked in. Because if anyone had thought about her as just a woman, just as a 39-year-old, just as someone whose doctor said she needed to be delivered and had looked at nothing else, then she should have had a live baby in her hands. She should have had that baby in her hand on the day of Thanksgiving. And it doesn't matter that it was a holiday, it would've been different if Natasha were. Telling me that, you know, I was suggesting to the doctor, well, I really wanna be in my Thanksgiving with my family. Can I come on Friday? But I didn't hear any of that from her story and she was already not feeling well.

Dr. Sophia:
So when I take all of that into consideration, I say to myself, well, if something is brewing, the better thing for me then would be, let me get the baby out so that I can deal with whatever else might be happening with Natasha, you know, in a way that was all that would be safe. And so I actually think that there's a lot of biases that were happening implicitly, explicitly, however they were. But the reality of the situation is that they were not paying attention to her as the patient. They did not think about who she was in front of them.

Touseef Mirza:
So could it be also that and or the fact that there was a miscommunication or that's part-

Dr. Sophia:
Of the, the whole same problem. I think that's a part of the system that's a part of the problem. It's the concept of getting back to Natasha and saying, because if one person has said, we're gonna induce you over the weekend, and the other person then says, well potentially this can wait. Well, where was that communicated to Natasha? I mean, we weren't there. I know what I'm hearing from Natasha. And I know that that's not what she's telling me or sharing with me. And so I certainly don't want to be one-sided, but I can speak from experience that a, even if I had a difference of opinion, which I've had many times with MFM because I know my patient, you know, I'm the one who's seeing them on a regular basis and what have you. And so sometimes the advocacy comes in both ways. And so if in fact your doctor felt like there was a reason to wait, then I feel that that also should have been communicated.

Dr. Green:
Yes, indeed. Natasha, was it a brown doctor who also said that you're to wait, because I saw and there were many brown doctors involved.

Natasha Green:
Yeah. So Dr. A was the MFM African lady. Dr. B was a part of her practice. She was a black lady,

Dr. Sophia:
Knowing that your providers at that moment were also women of color or providers of color. I go back to the fact of also implicit bias. So, the bias is not just because you look different than your provider, it's understanding your own internal biases. And that can happen just because of what's accepted in medicine in general and how we are taught through medical education and the quote unquote medical system as a whole. You don't have to be a doctor or a provider of a different nationality or race to still carry the same sentiment against black women because of how it has been ingrained that black women just don't matter the same, you know, black women simply don't have the same pain. Black women don't have the same degree of understanding. There are multiple levels to this. And it's unfortunate that even those who look like you can still fall into this category of implicit bias. At what point did you think about the possibility, am I becoming another statistic? What did that mean for you? Or what does that mean to you?

Natasha Green:
Yeah, and I think the point, that point was when I was in the period where my dad shared I was being induced, right? Because I, first of all, I never knew about the process of pregnancy and what induction was, I don't even know what the right way to say the action part of that. And I was laying like, I was laying in the bed, you know, so it took like three days. And it was me searching and googling stillborn stillbirth, like why? All these questions that you wanna ask God, you wanna ask a guru, you wanna ask someone who could give you answers in one thing. And then I came across Push for Empowered Pregnancy, one of the organizations that advocates for family leave and just other things around stillborn moms and rights. And I started just reading up on these different articles of you know, this fact of, you know, babies can be delivered dead. Like even that idea never was-

Dr. Sophia:
Never occurred to you. Of course.

Natasha Green:
Like I was praying not to die actually, I was like, please let the baby be delivered, like get this baby out and that I don't die in the process. And it was like the weirdest thought at that moment, but maybe not so weird under the circumstances that the fact that Journey was still dead, right? So to die during delivering death wouldn't have been the worst thing.

And so those are the thoughts that, you know, I was thinking about. And so as it relates to this time of thinking about being a statistics, it wasn't then, right then was why me? What have I done wrong? You know, like, well, delivering this baby. Why can't you just get this baby out now? My family and parents, my sister, my brother, you know, people coming up to a circle of support during this time. And then absolutely. Because you know, my dad is a researcher. He was probably researching on his own during this time, and my sister's into public health. And she got her degree in it. She was also very adamantly upset. So you don't think about these numbers, right? During that time you think about other things.

Touseef Mirza:
So in terms of what you just talked about in terms of your family coming together and the support, Dr. Green at that moment, what did you feel that you needed to do or to bring the support? And I know it's, it's kind of this unbelievable, devastating situation, but how did you approach that situation?

Dr. Green:
First of all, I need to maintain control of myself because I was very angry. But even so, they expected me to behave in a certain manner, but I didn't behave in that manner. And I also had to be strong for the family because if I was there tearing up, I was listening to this. Now, I've never heard about this. I'm like, tearing up. So I have a very big and extended family. So mom is gone, so everybody looks at me. So I had to be strong for her.

Touseef Mirza:
One question I wanna ask you, Natasha, obviously it's still very emotional for you and, and rightfully so, to talk about this now. How do you cope with this now? Just like do you think about it and then how do you go through it?

Natasha Green:
There's a lot of things. I know if I killed myself and committed suicide, my family would miss me. So that's something that you consider during this. I went to grief counseling, right? I went to grief counseling for a little bit, but then it came to a point where they were like group grief counseling. And to hear everyone talk about their loss and how they lost their babies, I felt psychologically that's not okay and safe for me. Because you're always ripping a bandaid off. I ended up also already having a counselor at this time because postpartum depression is real. But going back to what my dad says about like, just my strength or my health or all of this. Because I, and we'll go back to this, what we know about black women, a lot of black women, like, we just really have to be really strong.

Natasha Green:
And at any level you are strong. It doesn't matter if you're the CEO, from the working class, from whatever level, there's this level of strength, single black moms that you carry and you hold. And I don't know if it's genetics right? Ingrained in us, right? Because just like you know, trauma could be in your cells and in your genes is, is this idea of resiliency and fortitude that is also instilled in us. And then it goes back down to slavery and birthing and all of that. But my thing was, as it relates to getting through this, there were multiple ways. And the first way that happened was I have a best friend Nicoletta at the organization I worked with. And when I tell you she made a meal train for me and even, oh, if she, if someone asks like, what would you want or need? I wouldn't want to need anything. Maybe a slow death would've been the best choice.

Dr. Sophia:
Natasha, if I, I'm so sorry because I completely hear you and I am so thankful that you're still here because when we think about black maternal health and why we have such huge, you know, really grave disparities, mental health is the leading cause. The leading cause of why within a year of pregnancy, labor delivery, and in the postpartum period that black mothers die is because of depression and suicide and other mental health issues, whether it's addiction. So your candidness with telling us that is something that I think is what needs to rain even louder. It needs to ring because you are exactly what we're talking about when we're talking about this as an issue.

Dr. Green:
But it's not all sadness because prior to the situation, I mean, at her baby shower, people all over the world were there, you know, and the gifts were outpouring. So we are not telling anyone to just focus on the status, focus on the happiness also perhaps that is good for one's mental health.

Dr. Sophia:
So for me, I guess what I can see here, and I'm, pardon me Natasha, but certainly one of the positives is the support is the love of your family and knowing that no matter what, that they were gonna be there and that they are there and they continue to be there.

Natasha Green:
Yeah. And just to add on to what my dad was saying, my best friend and close colleague friend, and this is why work connections are important. This is why family connections are important. Her name is Nicoletta and she actually had her baby a year before, right? So she was doing all the things, right? Sending me stuff that she had that was old. And she's like, no, the baby's gonna grow out. And she actually did a meal train for me. And so what I was gonna share was that there are times when someone who's going through something, we're gonna say, no, we don't want anything. You know, don't help us, especially during the deepest grief. But the meal train and her reaching out on my Facebook internally at work, like, would you donate to Natasha’s meal train? Making sure she eats was one of the most valuable experiences I could ever see anyone doing for someone going through grief like in my life.

Natasha Green:
And that you know, gave me some of my foundation on okay, you know, I'm eating. And then the latter part of last year you started seeing me seeing people I cared about. And so doing things with the people I care and love the most, that also helped me through and people will do it differently. And then lastly, what helps me is I build projects. I love building projects, options and opportunities. I love advocating for people who can't advocate for themselves or don't know how to. And even I don't know how to. Like my dad shared, I'm here and before I thought it was about just maternal black maternal health. Now after hearing you Dr. Sophia and the rest, and hearing this word birth justice, that Letitia's attorney, General Letitia James spoke about now I'm like, oh, the death, the, the word is birth justice for me. Like, what is birth justice? What is debriefing over a situation with the people who are impacted, but not just telling me it happened in closed doors? What does it mean that, okay, this person, you're right, we can't sue for negligence, or we can't do this, or we can't do that, but what can we do to ease the pain like that I'll carry for the rest of my life and my family will too? It's not just a solo trauma.

Dr. Sophia:
Absolutely. It's important that after an event that we face it, we face it, we face it both as physicians, providers, anyone involved in the outcome. We all wanna understand what went wrong. We all wanna understand what we could do differently or what we could have done differently. And the only way to really address that is to do it at the time. And it's not about having a blame game. It really is about having that level of true openness and honesty and understanding.

Touseef Mirza:
So can I ask you, Dr. Sophia, in terms of all the soon-to-be mothers or people who know who are gonna be mothers or just in general, what are certain questions or considerations that let's say that Natasha was going through like a week before all of this was happening? Are there certain questions or are there certain considerations that you would recommend for people in that situation?

Dr. Sophia:
It really hits home the concept of, as Natasha said, there's nothing like having someone else there with you sometimes to speak when you feel like you can't. But moreover, it's having the understanding that you can ask questions. You have full agency over yourself. And again, Natasha, I want us to be very clear, there's no blame judgment at all. It's just to help people, especially women, understand you can have a voice. And so that voice is, I thought the other doctor said I should be induced. Can you explain to me your thought process when it's not happening? When something is not happening? Because you're right. What happens is, we just say, oh, well then, you know, I guess the doctor must know better.

But like I said, sometimes they just don't, they don't see you as an individual patient. They're looking at the protocols. You know, when we think about the governing bodies of, you know, the American College obgyns who make suggestions as to when a patient should be delivered under certain circumstances, well that circumstance is different for you. And if every woman says, I need you to see me first, see me and explain to me why we're making these decisions, then it forces us as your provider to be on notice. Hey, I need to make sure that I am always explaining why we are doing certain things. And if there's a deviation, why is there a deviation? And for sure, the one thing I would say is, I'm sorry, can we pause? I don't understand. Or can you explain?

Touseef Mirza:
Yeah. So I think also like being women, we have attendance. We've been taught to, you know, not ask too much, not to ruffle any feathers, especially if it's a person of authority. Then we sort of go along and this is implicit, right? This is not something even we realize, we're brought up that way. And I think just by having this conversation, it's so important to understand things that happen and what are possibilities of how to, even if we do a little bit of progress for anybody out there that can be so substantial.

Dr. Sophia:
Well, I will say that we're very honored to have had you here today to share your story. And we hope that we are honoring our journey by sharing your story that this reaches a mother and no other women and families that either have experienced this. And of course we pray that others don't, but we know the reality of the situation.

Touseef Mirza:
And I wanna say you've already done so much. Yes. Like what you just did is tremendous, even just that period

Dr. Sophia:
At this time, I think we can come to a close. We really, really appreciate having you on the Dr. Sophia podcast and we embrace you and hold you and hold space for Journey.

Touseef Mirza:
Thank you so much.

Natasha Green:
You're welcome.

Dr.Green:
Thank you for the opportunity.

Dr. Sophia:
Thank you.

Touseef Mirza:
Thank you everyone for listening.

Dr. Sophia:
This is General Medical Information based on my professional opinion and experience. For specific medical advice, please refer to your physician. Until next time, embrace your body. Embrace yourself.