Episode 11 : What is a doula? with Jennifer Michel-Wilson

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Welcome to the doctor Sophia podcast. I'm an ObGyn practicing for over 15 years in my native New York City and I love to help women learn about their bodies, empower them and embrace themselves. On this podcast we will talk openly and with heart about all things affecting women from pregnancy, menopause, periods, sexual health, fertility, and so much more. Disclaimer: this is general medical information based on my professional opinion and experience for specific medical advice please refer to your physician.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Dr. Sophia, ObGyn podcast. Today I am so excited that I get to interview my friend and doula, Jennifer Michel-Wilson. We are both here, joined by my friend and wonderful co-host Touseef Mirza.

Touseef Mirza:
Hi everyone. So, today we're really excited to have Jennifer coming to the podcast. Jennifer and Sophia, we're going to try to behave ourselves. I know both of you are excited to be next to one another, <laugh>. But before we begin, Jennifer, can you just introduce yourself?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Hi, I am Jennifer Michelle Wilson. I am a birth doula, postpartum doula, bereavement doula, childbirth educator, lactation educator. And I am a mental health advocate.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
She does it all. I told you she's amazing. So actually, let's just get right on into this, Jen, just go ahead and tell everyone how we met.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
So I had a client that kept telling me that she had an amazing doctor. I didn't really believe her. And <laugh>, and I just felt like she was just trying to be conversational. And so I get to the birth, I walk in the room, and I am so accustomed to a lot of healthcare providers not addressing me when I come into the room. And so Sophia Lubin turned around and she said, hello, smiling. And I was like, hmm, maybe my client was right. And so we worked together, helped this woman birth her beautiful baby. And the fact that we were on the same page was amazing to me because as a doula, that's often time I met with content. I met with aggression. And so it was amazing for us to be on the same page. We both stayed in our lane, but we merged beautifully together.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Yes, it was a great experience for me. Having Jennifer in the room just meant that the patient was comfortable, she was supported. She felt like she can get through the birth. And for me it was having a, an extra pair of hands almost, basically.

Touseef Mirza:
For those of us who haven't had experience with a doula, can you Jennifer, just explain to us what is a doula and how is it different from a midwife?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Okay. So a doula is a person that's trained professionally to give a birthing person or woman support mentally, emotionally, and physically during their pregnancy, during labor, and also after labor. The difference between a doula and a midwife is that I am non-medical support. So doulas are not medical. We do not have a license. And so that is the difference. A midwife is a healthcare provider.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
So just to add to that, so a midwife is someone who will attend a birth as a clinical person. A midwife is someone who has gone through very rigorous training. Typically they were nurses before, and then they become midwives, or they go through midwifery school specifically. So that's a good distinction between a doula as a nonclinical support person versus a midwife who is a clinical support person. And a midwife typically would take care of what we consider as low risk patients and they're able to perform births.

Touseef Mirza:
Low risk and no risk?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Low risk, no risk.

Touseef Mirza:
So, Jennifer, when you were saying that you involved throughout the phases of pregnancy of when the person is pregnant during birthing and then after giving birth, can you talk a little bit about how are you providing that support in each of those phases.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Okay. So typically when you meet a person that is pregnant and they're interested in having a doula, depending you can meet someone in the second trimester, you can meet someone at the very end of their third trimester. But either way, when I meet an individual, we have prenatal sessions where I am giving them education, I am helping them create a birth preference. I don't like to say plan because expectation, postpone makes their heart grow sick. So it's all about creating a preference, A, B, and C for C-section. Also, I teach them techniques how to get their body ready during the pregnancy. Also, I'm teaching them and their partner, comfort measures, different things that will soothe them. And most of all, I'm providing them with emotional support from the time we get to that labor day. Because as we know that when you're pregnant, your hormones are up and down. So I am consulting with them, even if it's for little things, just to know, let them know that I'm their support person. And then most of all, I stay on top of their doctor's appointments. I want to know what's going on. I want to make sure they're following up with everything that the doctor is telling them to do. So that's prenatal.

So during labor, I am there with you, whether if it's at a birthing center, home, or at a hospital.

Touseef Mirza:
So just a question in terms of what we just talked about for the first phase, it seems, and tell me if I'm understanding correctly, it's a combination of support and also advocacy. Like making sure that they're asking the right questions and getting everything, all the information they need for a healthy pregnancy?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Absolutely, it’s teaching them how to ask informed questions so they can make informed decisions. Learning how to advocate for yourself before we get to that day. Because if you do not know how to advocate for yourself before the labor day, then you are running into a lot of trouble the day of.

Touseef Mirza:
Okay. And Dr. Sophia, do you sometimes, encounter doulas in the pregnancy phase or it's really mostly during the birthing phase that you…

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
I would say about 90% of the time our encounters with doulas are during the time of the birth. However, I have had doulas accompany clients or patients to their prenatal visits even. And I don't mind it. I mean, what I will say is that I have evolved as a physician.

When I think back to the time when I was a resident and was the first time that I had really encountered the concept of a doula, it was at that time we said, oh, patient has a doula. Get your scissors ready. You know, it was like, get your knife ready because this is going to end up as a C-section. You know?

Touseef Mirza:
And why is that?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
The thought the thought process at that time was so against the doula because it felt like our interaction was always adversarial. It was always the doula against the doctor or the doctor against the doula. And the patient, unfortunately would be in the middle. So the thought process was always, brother, we're going to have a doula in this birth. This is going to be so problematic. And that was the culture or the vibe around it.

And it took me having several experiences with doulas to recognize: “wait a minute, they're making my job easier.” You know, <laugh>, because the doula is there as the support person. And sometimes what really made it easier was the fact that they did have some knowledge, so to speak. So sometimes it was hard to talk to someone who's in the middle of labor because they're in pain and things like that. But then you can have a conversation with the doula who can then make whatever is happening easier for that patient to understand.

And so once I got the message and the understanding, wait a minute, we are not at odds. We're not, we don't want different things. We want the same thing. It completely changed my interaction and relationship with doulas to the point where now I am probably among, I hate to say this, but few physicians who are always excited and support and literally tell my patients if you can, if you can afford it, if you have access, please have a doula.

Touseef Mirza:
Jennifer, would you like to add a little bit more color in terms of what are the different aspects that you are involved in as a doula during the birthing phase?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
So, similar to what Sophia just said, I am the bridge between the client. They're not my patient, right. They're my client. because it's a personal relationship. So I'm the bridge between the client and the medical staff. And so at times, I'm that person's voice, I'm there to make sure things go as smooth as possible. I'm also there to translate things in layman terms, to make sure that the healthcare provider, the staff, is trying to stick to the person's birth preference plan. As long as everything is still safe and mom and baby's doing well. Also, I'm there to keep the birthing person and their partner very relaxed. because we need oxytocin, right? That's the feel good hormone. So if once most people, when they come into a medical setting, they have anxiety, they are overwhelmed; automatically they think something's going to go wrong. So I'm there to reassure, to guide. But most of all also to help the doctor and the nurses to make their job a little bit easier. Because sometimes when things have to be done medically and it's necessary, there is a fear, especially for black and brown women: “Are you doing this to hurt me?,” “Is this necessary?” And so sometimes what happens, as soon as a healthcare provider mention an intervention, there's a wall that automatically comes up, especially for the birthing person. So I'm there to make sure that, “hey, do you understand what Dr. Lubin is saying?” “Hey, do you need a moment? Let's talk about this.” Because my job is to bring everything together. My job is not to cause division, but primarily my job is to make sure that my client is safe emotionally, mentally, and physically.

Touseef Mirza:
So what is the training for a doula?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Okay, so a doula has to take a course from, you find it through Google They look for an organization.. You have to get certified. And certified means that now you would have to do births and you would have to prove that you did births. So that’s a big thing I would tell black and brown women: when you're looking for a doula, make sure they're certified. Because you don't want to get a doula that just attended. And maybe they haven't done any births or they didn't complete everything. So, um, it's not just, oh, I think I'm a doula. Oh, I love birth work. No, we pay for a course and we are trained by professionals how to give nonclinical non-medical support.

Touseef Mirza:
And would you say, Dr. Sophia, when you see a person like Jennifer come in, are the different responsibilities or what you are doing and what the doula is doing, is that something that changes depending on the doula? Is it clear or you need to set sort of the boundaries or how do you actually engage?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
It's great if we can just set the tone from the very beginning. So once I recognize that there's going be a doula in the room, then it's important for us to know exactly what our boundaries are, what the rules are, what the roles are, you know. And one thing I like to do is to let the doula know from get go, we are on the same team. And if that is understood, and the concept I always bring to the forefront is we would love to make sure that we can have everything according to your preferences.

And I usually list, these are the things that may happen that if they do can alter how we do things. These are the things that you're, that as far as the hospitals, the institution or on the labor floor itself, what are some of the things that are acceptable? What are some of the things that are not acceptable? Oftentimes this is a conversation that I've had with the patient even before they get to labor, you know, to go through what some of their preferences are and to let them know, okay, at this hospital when you get to be a certain centimeters, no, we no longer allow you to eat because of the concept that there's always a possibility of having a c-section, if you are this far along. You can ask for an epidural at any point. You can or not have an epidural, if that's your choice. We'll ask you only once and you let us know if you want it.

So there's many different ways and places in which we have to set up and understand each other's preferences. And where the doula comes in is that oftentimes you may have had this conversation already with the patient, but then, you know, like I said, they're in pain, they're going through their own mental process throughout the labor. And sometimes having the doula, there is an extra step or an having an extra person who can relay the information.

The problem is, I'll have to say is that if you have a doula who is not working in a team effort, then it can become a back and forth type of relationship. In the sense that the doula's pushing for we have to have a vaginal delivery...as if that's the pinnacle. And I understand for most people who are giving birth, the goal is to have this wonderful, beautiful vaginal delivery. But that's not always possible. And even in the concept of having, or even in the place where they're having a vaginal delivery, things can still go wrong.
And so it's understanding that as the doula, the doula is there as the support to help explain, but not necessarily to always push back. And sometimes you get into this push pull between the doctor and the doula. And so for me it's important that from the get go and if we're able to establish a relationship with the doula, even in the prenatal phase, then when it comes to the labor process, we've already met, we already see that we're on the same page. And so therefore moving forward through the labor process can be that much more seamless. And for me, I don't have to be at the bedside the whole time. I have like five other patients I'm taking care of <laugh>.

Touseef Mirza:
There seems to be like a level, in terms of the client, in terms of the patient, we're providing a certain level of comfort and of trust by having the doula there. Would you agree with that?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Absolutely. Because you have to think about it this way. How many times does Sophia see this client? Right? She see the client five, six times, eight times. But most times when a physician see a patient, 10-15 minutes in a room max. With myself, the person, we have grown to have a relationship, right? So this person trusts me implicitly. So because the person trusts me so much, I have to make sure that I am translating everything, I am explaining everything. And also sometimes with the doctors or the nurses also asking them, what's the alternative? Do we have to do it that way? Not everybody's like Sophia. Okay, that's, let me start off with that. Not everyone is like Sophia where she had this patience, she had this love, this genuineness in her heart. That's what I meant when I came into the room. If everyone was like Sophia, then we wouldn't have black maternal health week. Okay. But a lot of times I'm met with, they could care less I'm met…

Touseef Mirza:
With, they can care less about what?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
What the client wants. What they desire. And I'm talking about when things are going well, I'm not talking about there's an emergency. So if things are calm and you are pushing your own agenda as a healthcare provider, that's a problem. Because especially for black and brown women, they already are not….this world doesn't respect black and brown women. So now you're coming into an area that's, you are on their turf. And so if you are not willing to listen, um, be open-minded to the person's birth preference plan, then that's where I come in where I'm bridging that gap. Like, “hey, can we look at this? She would like a hep a HeLOCK. She doesn't want the IV bag right away.” Because what happens is a lot of times when you go in as the person laboring, your voice starts to shrink mentally and emotionally.

And so when you start shrinking, you cannot necessarily verbalize all the time. Now, I don't want confuse it for I take over, it's not my birth. I already gave birth to a beautiful girl many years ago, so it's not my birth, but I'm there to support the person and help them to speak up. And when they can't then find a way that is respectable for…because I don't want a person to think that I'm taking over.

Touseef Mirza:
So would you say then, you're almost like a spokesperson for the patient?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
I'm their spokesperson. I am their lawyer in that moment. I am their mother, their sister, their friend. I'm their massage therapist. I'm everything <laugh>.

Touseef Mirza:
So the person they trust and the person that is advocating for them.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Absolutely.

Touseef Mirza:
So in what situation would a woman who found out that she's pregnant or is in her third trimester, why would a person reach out to a doula? Usually? What is the reason behind it?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
For black and brown women or women in general? Let's talk about women in general first and then we can talk about black and brown.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
So for women in general, reaching out to a doula, they're looking for support. They're looking for personalized support.

Touseef Mirza:
But so when you say, when they're looking for support, support can mean a lot of things. In your second trimester, you might be having some support with your partner, you might be having some support with some family member. But when we say support specifically for a doula, what does that mean?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
So you're looking for someone to give you guidance, education. You are looking for someone to give you support, emotionally, mentally. Because the difference between a doula and your partner and family: family and partners are not trained for this kind of work. And even if you say, well what about your mother? What about your sister who have had kids? Everybody birthing experience is different.
So a lot of times a woman will go to the doctor in her pregnancy and she only retained 2%, 5% of what they said. A lot of times doctors don't take their time to explain what does GBS mean. They may not explain…

Touseef Mirza:
That's what does.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
That's group B strep <laugh>.

Touseef Mirza:
I was going say, what is that?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
It's a culture that we do towards the end of the pregnancy to make sure that, you know, the woman doesn't have a specific bacteria that we may need to treat. But yes, you're absolutely right.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
So that's at the end. But let's say in the beginning, your second trimester, you may not realize how important it is to take the glucose test. So as a doula, I'm here to say, oh, you're this. How many, how many weeks are you? All right. So you should be coming upon your glucose test “Well, I'm not diabetic.” And I'm like, okay, but you still have to take the test. “No, but I'm fine.” Well, there's a reason why you need to take the test because the test will determine if you are diabetic, which will change the pregnancy from low risk to now high risk. So now when a person understands that; that's the education that I give them, they'll say, “oh, I didn't realize that, Jennifer. I'll take the test.”
And so we, like I said, we provide that educational guidance and we're also helping them to enjoy this journey because it's a scary journey, especially when it's your first child.

I remember when I was pregnant, I was overwhelmed.com. You can't think straight. You went from not feeling well to feeling well, the symptoms you develop. And then when you finally feel well, mentally you might not be feeling well. And so with all that being said, now imagine someone tells you have placenta previa. Like that's something, I had a low line placenta that was before the baby. And so the baby was on top of the placenta. So imagine for your first child, automatically I said, “oh, I guess I can't have a vaginal birth.” I was crushed. If I had had a doula, the doula would've helped me to see that. Well, let's not look at it in a negative way.

If you have to have a cesarean, then that's, there's nothing wrong with it. But I didn't have that support for someone to put a blanket around me. Because I give a blanket, we give a blanket as doulas. And so just having that support would've been different for me. Not that I end up having a vaginal birth. I did. But I spent months with anxiety that someone was going to cut my stomach open. A doula would've been able to tell me, you never know. The placenta might move up. You never know what can happen, but let's plan for X, Y, and Z. So I spent all that time, I did not enjoy my pregnancy because I was focused on a cesarean. And I did all of that for nothing. Because when I got to my ninth month, they said, “Ms. Wilson, you're going to have it look like you can have a vaginal birth.”

And I was like, are you kidding me? So I went through all that for nothing. But if I had a doula, she would've been able to cut my stress 50% or less.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
If we move a step forward and talk about why is it important for us to have doulas in this day and age when we're talking about black maternal health is because of the fact that black birthing people just do not have a voice. And we are at the end of the day dying at a rate that is three and four times that of our white counterparts. And so I remember again when I was a resident and we had a doula in the room…I'm going to tell you I never saw a doula in a black birth when I was a resident, the doulas were almost 98% were for white births. So it was only at the time white women I felt were the only people who had a doula. Fast forward, now I see a doula as, again, that person who is going to not just be an advocate, but can really be a part of the team and a part of the process that can help mitigate some of the bad outcomes that we know to exist when it comes to black pregnancies. And so I, Jen, I don't know what your thoughts are.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
I totally agree, especially from a doula perspective…it's really sad. Even just the other day, hearing about Crystal Anderson, the woman who died because she had stillbirth and she became septic days afterward. She died because she didn't get good care. Her death was preventable. And so, I don't know if she had a doula…but doula, we save lives. We save the baby's life and the mom's life because no matter what, we have education.

For instance, black women are not respected when they are complaining about their pain.

Because if a white woman says “boo hoo” the whole world, the whole floor is going to run and help her. And so, because we are not being respected. And so pain is one of the biggest indications, something is wrong. And so oftentimes, especially for black and brown women, this, our society believes that we're strong. So we should be able to handle pain. That comes from slavery. That we should be able to handle pain. And “oh, you'll be fine. No.” So if you don't want to look into the pain, what if the pain is an indication that she's falling into hemorrhage inside? And so now we live here in the United States… women should not be dying. This is not a third world country. And so now this is why doulas are important, because black and brown women are dying at a rate that doesn't make any sense.

And so people are scared. People are literally scared. Like there are people that rather give birth at home by themselves. I'm not even trying to be funny because they are afraid that if I walk into that medical building, I may not walk out. And the reality is, you might be right, because a lot of black and brown women never come back out. And so we are seeing this at a high rate. And it's important now for black and brown women to be educated, to get a doula, to have someone be your voice.

sometimes you may feel like, “well, I make good money and I have great insurance, and I'm exempt.” No, you're not. If Serena Williams…if anyone knows her story and how she was ignored, this is a millionaire. A black tennis player icon. She has a white husband, and she was ignored. She was ignored. So if that can happen to Serena, then what happens to the girl with a GED? When a person is trying to assess who you are. So if you're on Medicaid, if you're not married, people are judging, they're being biased. So it works against the patient because now you are walking in and unfortunately you might have someone standing in front of you that views you as less than not only because of the color of your skin, but also all the other criteria.

Touseef
When black and brown women reach out to you or other doulas, is that the reason why they're reaching out…because they understand that they're in a situation that's unfair to them? Or they don't understand that necessarily…they just want support?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
90% of black and brown women, when they fill out my intake form on my website, and it asks, “why do you want to have a doula? It says, 'cause I don't wanna die.

Touseef Mirza:
Wow.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Wow.

Touseef Mirza:
So there's, there's that level of awareness.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
There's that level of awareness. I've never encountered so far a person that wants a doula, just because it's an accessory. It's because “I don't wanna die.” That's the number one reason. The second reason is I don't want to experience trauma. I don't want anyone mistreating me. And they're like, this is what I need because I want to be safe and I don't wanna die. And these are women of all ages, whether they're 19 or they're 52.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Wow.

Touseef Mirza:
it's amazing to me…it's sad, number one, that that's the reason why they're reaching out to you. Because a few minutes ago, we were talking about…your clients, you want them to have an enjoyable experience. This is not about enjoyment in the cases when it comes to black and brown women. It's about survival.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
I hope that this particular podcast rings home the message that the word doula and support person really should be synonymous and that also equals better outcomes.

Touseef Mirza:
Does it? Do we know if… has any research been done?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
Absolutely. It's about a healthy mom, healthy baby. Two people walked out, two people came in, two people need to go home. And then not only that, I need to make sure that two people are going home, especially the one person, the mom, that they are going home without trauma mentally. Because statistics show when you have a traumatic birth, you're at a higher risk of postpartum depression and anxiety. And so it's funny when you said stuff about…it's not about enjoyment. So they start off wanting a doula out of survival mode, and then they realize there's enjoyment with having a doula. Because this is not school and a teacher lecturing you. Especially for me, I'm a whole vibe.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Jennifer Is a whole vibe that is, anybody hasn't gotten that yet! Jennifer is a whole vibe onto herself.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
<laugh> Yes. So it's about laughing, having fun. Because how can I tell you to tap into your oxytocin if I don't give you oxytocin? I gotta bring it to you. So when they realize… when they're interviewing with me, or as soon as we start with the first prenatal, I've heard people say to me, “wow, this was so much fun. You made me feel good. My anxiety's starting to go down.”

Touseef Mirza:
So Dr. Sophia, would you say, after listening to all of this, and obviously you've worked with doulas before, do you recommend certain of your patients to have a doula?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
I definitely do. I recognize when some of my patients really don't have support people at home or they don't have a way of dissecting some of the things that may be happening with them. And as much as I wanna be there to help them, I still have to be the doctor in this situation. And I can't be all things all the time in all places. And that is definitely where a doula can help make a huge difference and have a big impact. And so, yeah, I recommend doulas all the time for patients, but specifically for patients that I know may have a hard time understanding the medicine, may have a hard time understanding some of the difficulties that they may be going through in the pregnancy. And it doesn't mean that they're having a very difficult pregnancy. But like Jen said, sometimes just the concept of being pregnant already adds a layer of anxiety.

Touseef Mirza:
I'm just thinking about all the women who are pregnant and that they think that just having an ObGyn should be sufficient.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Right. And an ObGyn is great because you need that clinical person who's going to go through all the different protocols and milestones throughout the pregnancy of the things that you need in order to stay healthy in the pregnancy. For sure.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Overall, I would say that I have seen the benefits, I really have. And I see how, especially in black birthing persons, how it can be a huge plus. And especially even when we think about afterbirth, we didn't even get a chance to really dive into that. But when we talk about the postpartum period, when women definitely get overwhelmed those first two weeks when women are going through the baby blues and they're feeling like, what just happened to me? What just happened to me physically? What just happened to me emotionally? I now have this creature, this person, this human being that I now have to take care of, aside from trying to take care of myself. And having a doula helps in that phase, when you are feeling overwhelmed. You have somebody else that you can call and talk to who can help you through the process, the questions in your mind, the things that are still very much lingering from actually the birth, you know, questions that you have from, did this happen? Was that okay? And the reminders of what to ask your doctor the next time you see them.

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
And to echo that, I would say too, think about it this way, when you give birth, usually see the doctor, if everything went well medically, you see the doctor six weeks later. So if you're starting to not feel good mentally, emotionally, that's where the doula comes in. We're helping you to process your birth, to normalize your feelings. Because unfortunately for black and brown women we live in a world that makes us feel like we have to always be strong we gotta be strong. “You're lucky.”…I can't stand that term. So “you're lucky to have the baby” “you're fortunate to have a baby” “you're fortunate to have the degree” “you're fortunate to be married”…. that has nothing to do with it.

And especially for black and brown communities, if we could start having non-traumatic birth, it's going to change the community. Because when you're this person coming home and you had a good birth, you were empowered even if it was painful… because birth is painful, but suffering is unacceptable. Because when you suffer, it equals to trauma. So you come home and you had a birth that was powerful and you feel empowered, guess what…you're gonna approach postpartum in a different way. And when you can give that love to that baby to your family, it affects the community. But if you're, if we are coming home with trauma, with all this baggage, guess what? It shapes us to be a different type of mother. And that's not fair to us because white women don't go through that. I'm not saying they don't have traumatic births. I mean they will, but the support system is very different for them.

Because once you have intense fear, you go into fight, flight, or freeze. You're nervous, your sympathetic nervous system kicks up. And so that alone will change the birthing process. And I don't care if you have a great doctor that will change the birthing process if you automatically have all this fear. So now, the things that would work doesn't work. Now we gotta do more interventions.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
I talked to you about how doctors feel about doulas and what it was like for me back in the day, let's say, and how I view them now. But how do doulas view doctors and how can we create a more collaborative team?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
I think one of the things that is annoying for doulas, for myself, mainly… give me a chance. Just give me a chance and see what I'm about. A lot of us as doulas are very nervous. Every time I go to a birth, I say a prayer before I walk into the hospital, because I know I'm going to be met with nine out of 10 times. Someone's gonna be nasty, someone's gonna be rude. You don't know how many times I walk into a room and I'm like, “hi, I am Jennifer.” And they'll stare at me and I'm like, “oh, what is your name?” “Why do you want my name?” I'm like, geez, Louise. What happened to a little mannerism one-on-one.

And so when I met Sophia. Like it was just so beautiful. Like two people that are different in so many ways, their profession is different. But we were able to come into a situation culturally humble.
Our humility allowed us to collaborate. Our humility allowed that particular client to have a beautiful, beautiful birth.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Honestly, at the end of the day, it's about the patient. It's about their experience, and it's about how we can get them through a safe delivery process. And if the energy in the room, if there's someone who's a part of the process, whether that's a family member, a nurse, a doctor, whoever it is that's coming in, everybody has to be on the same page. We all have to be on board with giving this birthing person the best experience so that they can have a safe delivery. And that's whose side I'm always on.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
So Jen in closing, would you like to share a quote with us?

Jennifer Michel-Wilson:
My quote would be I believe that to lead with love because love holds all things, bears all things, endure all things, And so for me that's the message I want for the black maternal health week is love.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
That really was amazing and I agree with you the concept of leading with love. So as we close out this episode, I would like to say in Black Maternal Health Week that we should all be leading with love throughout the birthing process. Thank you for joining us on the Dr. Sophia ObGyn podcast. Until next time.